Curse

The Winds Silence · Nov 15, 2006, 07:20 AM // 07:20

here is my opinion on this, nightfall is new, there are greens in night fall, (and an elite mission coming) its just that not everyone knows where the greens are, or the good chest runs, or solo builds for any of that...the farming time will come, hopefully

oh and if u wanted to post farming spots go for it

Artdeux · Nov 15, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Yea, getting bored here as well.

Farming was quite fun for me, as it kept me going for the nice items. People need reachable goals in every game. The removal of farming from a game makes those goals further and further out of reach. Sooner or later, 15K becomes FoW just because the time invested to get FoW before, would be the same amount of time it would take now. (Exaggerated for emphasis.)

The thing is, you'd have to go through All 3 campaigns a few times with just regular rewards and items for just 1 set of 15K armour. I'm not seeing the 5,000 gold rewards or anything to make it easier right now. I'm reluctant to buy any large items for fear it will take forever to recover the amount of money used to get the item.

Anyway, I think a way to fix the AI could be for it to determine party size as the high priority. I don't think 100 monsters (Or players even) would really flee from one person, as they shouldn't know if the person is breaking down or not.

[EDIT] - I guess I should also add that Farming is an End-Game thing, and I thought Guild Wars was supposed to emphasize the amount of end-game content? Once you're done with any campaign now, you're done. =/

Div · Nov 15, 2006, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Maybe if people didn't play guildwars 10 hours a day they wouldn't be as bored with it...and go for titles if you're that bored. or just take a break from guild wars instead of whining about how boring it is because you spent 60 hours in the past week playing it...get a job? a life?

and i have no idea why people complain saying the AI is broken because melee mobs now run from a solo farmer...farming is still doable, and it actually makes sense that they will stop attacking you after hitting about 20 times and realizing your life isn't even going down? god forbid, monsters are getting smarter...

The Millard · Nov 15, 2006, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Maybe if people didn't play guildwars 10 hours a day they wouldn't be as bored with it...and go for titles if you're that bored. or just take a break from guild wars instead of whining about how boring it is because you spent 60 hours in the past week playing it...get a job? a life?

and i have no idea why people complain saying the AI is broken because melee mobs now run from a solo farmer...farming is still doable, and it actually makes sense that they will stop attacking you after hitting about 20 times and realizing your life isn't even going down? god forbid, monsters are getting smarter...

I totally agree with this. I don't see how you can possibly be bored of this game UNLESS you play 24/7 around the clock. Plus, if someone could tell me the reason of farming if you the armor you want dyed the color you want, and the runes you want and the weapon you want?

Ozab · Nov 15, 2006, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Count me in the getting bored column as well. And as an overall "theme" if you will, Nightfall still has plenty of things to do, but far too many of those things have become or are becoming too tedious to bother to do.

Here's a list of reasons I think NF has lost the longevity the previous 2 chapters had, and some possible solutions:

1. Storyline. NF has the best storyline yet, but that is only a feature the 1st or 2nd play through. I like making a character of each class, but going through the NF storyline 10 times in a row is far too much work. Prophecies solved this problem by letting you skip missions, Factions had it to a much lesser extent because it was so much shorter. And both had missions that were challenging enough that at least for the first 3-4 playthroughs you wanted/needed humans which made each time different.

Solution: Allow more skipping ahead after the first play through. For instance let tyrian characters use the portal in the desert and skip to the second half of the game.

2. Heroes. I love them, but they could be made to be less destructive to the multiplayer aspects of this game. I've henched/heroed the entirity of NF without breaking a sweat, and was never even tempted to group up with another human. One huge flaw with the hero system is the need to level the heroes up. This means for the early and middle game, you have a large disincentive to group with people, since if you do you're not leveling up your heros. By the time you reach the end game you're used to henching it, and besides if you switch to PUGing at that point, then why'd you bother leveling up the heroes in the first place?

Solution: Remove leveling up of heros, just set hero level=PC level. Make 16-32 player missions that take 8 players along with +1-3 heros each to complete.

3. AI/Farming Nerfs. Here's the bottom line, before the nerf solo farming was 20x or more effective than "playing the game". You got 8x the drops for being solo, and with the old AI you could kill 20+ monsters in the same amount of time it would take to kill 2-3 currently. Post nerf solo hunting is generally at most 4-6x more effective than "playing the game". Or to sum up farming now takes way more time and work for the same reward.

Solution: If you're going to leave things the way they are, then you need to turn up the drop rate. Otherwise every end game activity that requires significant amounts of gold is going to feel like a horrible grind to your long term players.

4. Chests. I was never into chest running in a big way. But the old way they worked made it worthwhile to actually play with other people. Now you might as well go solo. Also I've noticed NF missions NEVER have chests. It was always nice to pull a few chests along the way when helping someone else do a mission you'd already done, this is now gone.

Solution: Put it back. Alternatively drop the prices on keys in the old chapters at least in half, this is not needed for NF, since NF purples are actually good. And then when multiple people enter a zone spawn more chests than you would for a solo player. I'd say 1-2 more chests per person would be great. And put the chests back in missions.

5. Skills are way too expensive, I'm not sure of the exact count but I think it's up near 1000 now. Outfitting a complete set of 10 characters with all skills using the current system costs millions of gold. If you're lucky and you don't splurge on expensive armor you might make 100k per character playing through all 3 games. As if cookie cutter builds didn't have enough incentives for their use.

Solution: Many have been proposed, here's a possible new one, only make the 1k be required to be spent ONCE per skill, after that any other character on the account can add that skill for free. This would also make rerolls to change appearance much less painful. Elite acquisition should also probably be made account wide instead of per character. As for cookie cutter builds, add missions where a specific build or sub set of skills have to be used, especially early on. This would be a great learning tool.

6. Inventory management, Items and Armor. I am constantly running out of space. Heros have made the problem even worse. The proportion of time I spend moving things around is getting larger. Moving things around is not fun. And then there's armor. What's the point of having 2 dozen armor skins if I only have room for 1 maybe 2 suits?

Solutions: Make the stash bigger, the stash should at a minimum be large enough that you can move a complete set of equipment from one character to another, including all 12+ heros. And it should get larger still as you add more chapters. E.g. at the current time the stash needs to be at least 5*9+13*2=71 slots instead of the 20 slots it currently is, plus more for owning multiple chapters.

Make heros able to be equipped with the PVP equipment maker, and while you're at it give them weapon switch slots.

Make armor no longer an inventory item, instead make it like hero armor, when you "buy" armor you unlock that appearance for that slot. Let people switch each slot on the fly between any armors they've unlocked. By slot I mean head, hands, legs, feet, torso. That way you could still use pieces from different suits to mix and match your own look. And then you could add titles for number of unlocked armor pieces! Whee.

7. Titles. Others have talked about the sunspear grind. It is there, and it is real, especially after the first time through, when you're no longer interested in doing all the side quests, and especially for non Elonian characters. Also remembering to run over and hit the right shrine before you kill the corresponding monster type in each zone gets old fast. Though the sunspear general grind itself is pretty minor compared to the grind of the entire storyline for the 3rd+ time through.

The titles that have been bugging me the most are the Treasure Hunter and Wisdom titles. Feeling that I need to concentrate all of my chest opening and gold IDing on 1 of my 10 characters is NOT FUN. Gone is the "ooo a gold, let's see what it is!" moment of fun. Instead it's replaced by yet more moving stuff around so that my designated IDer gets the credit.

Solutions: For the sunspear grind give non elonian characters 1-1.5k before they reach the mainland. For all characters double the rate of sunspear point acquisition. And make the activation of each shrine one time per character per zone. Another possible solution add a good quantity of sunspear and/or lightbringer title points to as a reward for each mission, and/or make kills within missions add to sunspear/lightbringer points. Finally, make the Wisdom and Treasure Hunter titles account wide. Making the lightbringer title account wide wouldn't be a bad idea either.

8. Another small problem: In prophecies, if someone was at THK, they were eligable to join you for the THK mission. In NF eligibility for a mission has been decoupled from ability to enter a mission town. This is yet another obstacle to overcome when forming a PUG.

Solution: I don't have one off the top of my head, though fixing this could tie into problem #1.

That's about all I can think of for the moment. Boy this turned into quite a tome.

Zakarr · Nov 15, 2006, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

I'm confused here; could you explain what you mean here. I've seen nothing more difficult with the AI. All it does is run around. In fact, since the 31st, I think I've died once and that was while I stepped afk for a drink.

- course I haven't been wanting to play all that often either.

Well, it is harder than ever before. I don't know your definition for hard AI but when I have been in human groups, there is more deaths than ever before. If you play with full AI group, it is actually easier, thanks to heroes. Maybe that is the reason why AI groups are popular. Harder with humans, easier with AI.

upier · Nov 15, 2006, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Maybe if people didn't play guildwars 10 hours a day they wouldn't be as bored with it...and go for titles if you're that bored. or just take a break from guild wars instead of whining about how boring it is because you spent 60 hours in the past week playing it...get a job? a life?

but if one has the time to play it though that fast and loses interest in it equally fast - why come back for the next chapter? its starting to look as a trend - you go though the game and then you have nothing to do. the game is bugged - and a lot of things dont get fixed.
so why give another 60 bucks to anet once the next chapter comes out?
my guess would be that its ppl that buy the game on the first day and play it 24/7 till they get through are the ones anet should pay more attention to. since its pretty obvious that they love the game - and once the die-hard fans are starting to go away - the game might be in some serious problems.

WasAGuest · Nov 15, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Maybe if people didn't play guildwars 10 hours a day they wouldn't be as bored with it...and go for titles if you're that bored. or just take a break from guild wars instead of whining about how boring it is because you spent 60 hours in the past week playing it...get a job? a life?

and i have no idea why people complain saying the AI is broken because melee mobs now run from a solo farmer...farming is still doable, and it actually makes sense that they will stop attacking you after hitting about 20 times and realizing your life isn't even going down? god forbid, monsters are getting smarter...

I don't understand this. Don't play for 10 hours a day (my butt would hurt); yet go for titles... umm, some of those titles would require 10 hours a day to get.
Get a job? Well, for those that need one, sure. I personally work from home; and when my work is done, I play GW. When my wife comes home then her and I do something. How has this made me un-bored with GW?
The AI is also not broken because it runs from a solo farmer; though it is funny to see three groups of X run to the edges of the map as my small-as-possible-monk with pigtails chases them begging them to hold still... or when my bikini-wearing ritualist is chasing them around holding a urn of ashes beging them to hit her... hilarious to see. It's even funnier to see some of the new builds simple destroy the AI within seconds since it's more worried about AoE and melee fleeing. When something "different" hits them, it causes them to not know what to do... so they stand there and die.

No, farming is not dead, solo farming is in fact easier now than ever before. You can very easily farm even the Djinn if you know what your doing.
No, the AI is broken because it attempts to be something it can not pull off in the PvE world. And in doing this, it has removed the fun factor of PvE. The assumption that people are saying the AI is broken simply because the mobs are smart enough to run is unfounded and out of date. This was the complaint from cookie cutter farmers between the 25th and 31st. Since then, the AI has changed and now the entire AI build in PvE has been broken. Search the threads, do some reading up on, and take note of the dates. It's interesting to see the attitude changes pre to post 31st AI.

ChaoticCoyote · Nov 15, 2006, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artdeux

The removal of farming from a game...

Farming has NOT been removed form the game. SOME TYPES of farming have been rendered impossible, but new builds and teams have largely solved that problem.

Of my favorite solo farming spots, only ONE has been seriously affected, and that is due to the nature of my farming character.

I can still two-man UW.

I can still farm vermin.

I can still hit a dozen other places, including some nice spots in Elona.

Now, farming is only about 10% of the time I spend in the game, but I do find it relaxing after a stressful day. And it is certainly still possible, if you're willing to be flexible and smart.

Trakata · Nov 15, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

but if one has the time to play it though that fast and loses interest in it equally fast - why come back for the next chapter? its starting to look as a trend - you go though the game and then you have nothing to do. the game is bugged - and a lot of things dont get fixed.
so why give another 60 bucks to anet once the next chapter comes out?
my guess would be that its ppl that buy the game on the first day and play it 24/7 till they get through are the ones anet should pay more attention to. since its pretty obvious that they love the game - and once the die-hard fans are starting to go away - the game might be in some serious problems.

Thank you, Upier. This is exactly the way I feel. Now, I don't play 24/7, never have. I have school and other obligations. However, I do enjoy playing this game and it currently takes most of my free time, a few hours a day.

I'm currently going for quite a few titles, actually. But what happens when I get royally pissed at some mission I need for Protector or that last 0.2% I need for Grandmaster Cartographer? I can't go chill out and smash a few trolls or whatever the mood suits. I have to go grind on something else.

I play this game because I can't shell out 15 bucks a month for another online game and wasting 50 bucks on a cool new game only to beat it and find I have nothing left to do doesn't appeal to me either. I'm hoping GW won't become the latter.

xulidan · Nov 15, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48

As for me, I am as bored as you guys. The only thing keeps me in GW is my PVP guild's gvg time since this is like the ONLY time where I can have fun with a GROUP doing something toward a goal.

I totally agree with other people said earlier about NF heroes. I used to play PVE. But after heroes are introduced in NF, and when I tried to play through the game with my monk...I quit. Why? Is because even as a monk, I can't find a PUG group. What's fun with GW when you can't play with real people instead you have a bunch of semi-"smart"-gay-AI-chasing-enemy-male-AI-monk around the whole freaking map.

So, yea, ...gvg....

Neo Nugget · Nov 15, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

When i get bored,i work on my rank.Or find a character that i feel like playing and ussually start to play that one for a while.

birdfoot · Nov 15, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

I started reading from the last post I've read last night and decided to skip the rest to type this post. This thread is getting alittle off-topic into the issues with AI, heroes, PUGs or farming after the recent update and release of Nightfall.

While I said I'm bored with GW, I actually don't have any issues with the current AI, implementation of hero system (I personally think it's a good thing), PUGs (my Nightfall PUG experience hasn't been too awful) or farming. I think they are ok so far, still bearable and not exactly anything that would drive me off from the game; even Nightfall was pretty good IMO. If there were any issues I could personally think of, it's more of GW being more of a mob-killing-centric game which naturally gets dull for me after some time. I think Guild Wars has huge potential of evolving into a game with more variety; as such, I'm hoping that ANet would disclose their intended direction for Guild Wars so that I can decide whether I should stay and check out or hop on to something else. Perhaps I'm taking this too much like a career. :P

I have nothing against Guild Wars really. I still love the game, but it's come to a point where I need to decide whether the game has hit inertia for me or not (it's the same with Diablo II).

Pudin Tame · Nov 15, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Maybe if people didn't play guildwars 10 hours a day they wouldn't be as bored with it...and go for titles if you're that bored. or just take a break from guild wars instead of whining about how boring it is because you spent 60 hours in the past week playing it...get a job? a life?

and i have no idea why people complain saying the AI is broken because melee mobs now run from a solo farmer...farming is still doable, and it actually makes sense that they will stop attacking you after hitting about 20 times and realizing your life isn't even going down? god forbid, monsters are getting smarter...

Hmmm...I build trucks for eight hours every day and go to school as well. Stop assuming. I still beat Nightfall in no time at all. Some of us are just good, probably most of the ones complaining.

A group ten times the size of yours that are all eight levels higher should not run, period. If the AI is so much smarter it should figure out how to kill us with these incredible odds.

WasAGuest · Nov 15, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

To me, the issues mentioned above are all on topic, as they all relate to various forms of boredom; which oddly almost all stem from one source. The AI.
With the changes to the AI, many "optional" forms of enjoyment were removed or made simply less enjoyable than they were previously. Farming for example, many enjoyed a great deal. Now, it's still possible, even easier in many cases, but it's not as fun... hence, boring.
Personally, I find farming pretty boring, but would take part in it when I saw something I would like to have (armor wise). That too me was part of the fun; running around in cool looking gear. Now that farming is even more boring than before, getting that cool looking armor has become more like a job, then a recreational situation.
Then, as an avid player; I really enjoyed the combat in Guild Wars. I loved the double damage bosses in Factions. I had a great many laughs with friends at being one hitted by some of them. It was great.
However, I loath, despise and utterly hate the GW PvP game. Why? It's simply not my cup-o-tea. I like PvP games like Battlefield 2/2142. I love PvP in games like Rome Total War and Medival Total War. Those are my types of PvP games. But the GW PvP... blech! It's too much like a game of tag to me.
Now, when I see that PvP play style oh so subtly invading the part of Guild Wars I love to play in... it is no longer fun; and we have boredom.

So, as I see it, the AI having changed to a really poor adaption of a wanna-be PvP player has changed many things. Farming is not as fun (for those that found it fun); combat, the core of the game, is now less fun; exploration and running around for whatever the reason is now less fun (since the AI is dorked into a perma-aggro lock)... simply put, the new AI has ruined the game for many and made it into a much less fun game than it was just weeks ago.

xulidan · Nov 15, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Maybe if people didn't play guildwars 10 hours a day they wouldn't be as bored with it...and go for titles if you're that bored. or just take a break from guild wars instead of whining about how boring it is because you spent 60 hours in the past week playing it...get a job? a life?

and i have no idea why people complain saying the AI is broken because melee mobs now run from a solo farmer...farming is still doable, and it actually makes sense that they will stop attacking you after hitting about 20 times and realizing your life isn't even going down? god forbid, monsters are getting smarter...

* smart * enemy AI thinking: (pseudo-code)

1) Get ready to pwn guys, 20 times hitting--->no life going down--->RUN!!!!---->run to get group 2 to join up
2) Group 2 joined the fight---> 20 times hitting--> uh, hitting limit reached-->ZOMG, we suck!----> get more group to join----> Mob ftw!

Bhaaltazar · Nov 15, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijik Oni Hanryuu

1. yes, something should be done, they should quit.
2. you want something done, do it yourself, don't sit and moan
3. Anet is full of people just like us, they aren't gods, so if YOU don't know what to do, how can you expect them.

It's your world, make it what you wish, but NEVER sit idly by and merely spout complaints.

1. Yes. You and alike would be very few that remain than probably.
2. I payed 50$ for the product they sell. If u buy a car and something is wrong with it or u dont like something, u just fix it yourself right? Where I live things dont go this way.. Customer has right to demmand a quality for what he buys.
3. Nobody expect them to be gods. They are implementing things they were opposing at the beggining ( like grinding - now u have to grind for factions, now sunspear points etc.. ) Well how about they say they read these forums all day long so i WOULD expect them to know what players want.
I made many suggestions on PVE side already and many more from ppl who thinks similar like i do.

And if u just started playing or you still enjoy playing the same things after 2 years keep enjoying it. Nobody is coming after you to take this away from you. I dont see why you are snapping like this, like a child, whos toy is just about to be stollen. If you think everything is as it should be than that is your opinion and dont try to force it on others who think different.

DigitalForm · Nov 15, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pudin Tame

Hmmm...I build trucks for eight hours every day and go to school as well. Stop assuming. I still beat Nightfall in no time at all. Some of us are just good, probably most of the ones complaining.

A group ten times the size of yours that are all eight levels higher should not run, period. If the AI is so much smarter it should figure out how to kill us with these incredible odds.

I go to college, work, spend time with friends/family, play guild wars when I have free time. I see no need to do marathon runs or play fast. Taking it all in is the way to go. I am through most of Prophecies and Factions and some of Nightfall.

The AI gets annoying but my problem is with the lack of innovation. What about using the portal mechnic in the desert to make puzzle quests?? The battles are basically the same just in a different area and with different skills that are close to others. The art in this game is magnificent, and GW is one of my favorite games. It is just that with all the promise they show, there isn't much in the way of completely new quests or mechanics besides the wurms. You could easily take a battle from nightfall and change the skins/professions to Factions and nothing would change.

I am bored because of this and the overall lack of depth compared to other games I have played and get to play/observe. My friends play WoW, City of Heroes and Villans, Ultima Online etc and I get to see the different things they can do. Maybe I am bored with the lack of significant improvements (especially from Chapter 1 problems) or maybe my tastes have changed ... I am not sure. I am going to wait for the 'big update' because I want to see if NF will interest me again.

Those who can't handle other peoples' opinions, can you go sabotage a different thread? I like reading on how people are or aren't bored and don't want this thread shut down because of arguements and narrowminded egos.

------------

Finally got my wings .. even though they are ethereal and only pop out sometimes.

brokenmonkey · Nov 15, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Not of the game.. I'm bored of opinions like yours though.

birdfoot · Nov 15, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by brokenmonkey

Not of the game.. I'm bored of opinions like yours though.

Hmmm... You're probably one of those responsible for the decline of PUGs. You can always choose to ignore this topic since you have nothing constructive to say (at least most were giving their perspective), somehow you seem to be tempted to wanna piss people off.